Chantal Brodrick: Hi Terry, welcome along to the show!
Terry Hawkins: Thank you Chantal, so good to meet you.
Chantal Brodrick: It’s very exciting to have another Aussie accent on this show, it’s quite rare for me.
Terry Hawkins: I started rolling my R’s now that I live in America.
Chantal Brodrick: I was going to say, I should explain to everyone, whilst you have got an Aussie accent, we’re actually speaking, you’re in LA right now, am I right?
Terry Hawkins: Yes, Los Angeles.
Chantal Brodrick: You’re in LA, I’m in Sydney, so it’s an Aussie in LA.
Terry Hawkins: We love it.
Chantal Brodrick: We’ll talk a little bit more about that. Look, we like to start each show by talking about any app systems or rituals that you use in your life to stay organised and to stay on top of things without getting overwhelmed. Can you share any of those with us?
Terry Hawkins: I love that question, and I think it’s, I don’t have any specific apps. I’m from old school, and this is going to be part of what’s great about this conversation, I think, because I’ve had three decades of experience in business. I’m very much about data dumping, and so when things get overwhelming, I actually put it down with a pen or pencil, actually, on paper. I find that writing allows me to, it’s almost therapeutic. Another ritual that I do is when it gets too much for me, I compartmentalise, and so I just put things into buckets. My finances, my business, my family, whatever it is, and the one that I have enough momentum or the most momentum on, I stick with that for a while, and then that helps me build the [inaudible 00:01:25]. That’s what I do, and I think the other thing is if I’m feeling really revolting, I watch what I’m eating and what I’m putting, the fluids that I’m putting into my body, because usually when I’m feeling overwhelmed, one of the biggest reasons is because of what we’re fueling ourselves with.
Chantal Brodrick: I like your advice when it comes to compartmentalising those different issues, because I think some of the reasons that we often feel overwhelmed is because we just feel as though there is just too much going on in too many areas of our lives all at once. That’s a nice mental way of I think dealing with it and breaking it down into a much simpler focus. Thank you for sharing, that’s great advice. Now, just to give everyone a little bit of background, so you have gone through, you just mentioned three decades that you’ve been in your career. You’ve gone through a number of different changes during that time. Just to give everyone a little bit of background, first of all, you founded People and Progress in 1989, and that was already after a decade of senior management roles, and then you relocated from Sydney to LA in 2010 so you could really focus in on scaling People and Progress brand in North America. What I was hoping you could share with us, what sort of challenges did you face in that journey, I mean, when you changed industries and then when you changed countries?
Terry Hawkins: I didn’t really change industries. I changed within the industries. I’ve always been in training and education, and then did speaking on the side – well, speaking became a huge part of my life about five or six years ago, for about 10 years, I suppose. I think that the biggest thing for me doing this journey over three decades is the, when you get attached, and I think you and I were having a conversation just recently, someone said to me while I was being interviewed when I first got here, and they said what was the best and worst thing about relocating to another country, and I said my memory. They said what do you mean? I said, well I remember how hard it was to start a business, because when you’re in it, you’ve got adrenaline, it’s all exciting, and you’ve got that romantic notion of building something and growing something.
When you start again, and I literally started again, because when I got to America, I got very sick, and so for 12 months, I was practically bedridden, and literally lost everything practically overnight after 21 year continual climb. I have the memory of how hard it was, but I also have the memory of what I had to do. I started the business, I knew how to do business, I knew what was involved, and so it’s [inaudible 00:04:07] one half [inaudible 00:04:07] the other. I knew the good side and I knew the ugly side.
Chantal Brodrick: I’ve gotta ask you, during that time, I’m going to go totally off script, but during that 12 months when you said that you weren’t well for that time period, how did you find the mental strength to go, okay, I’ve had this really difficult 12 months, and I’ve gotta start again. Mentally, how did you handle that situation?
Terry Hawkins: Do you know, that is such a great question because, and it’s so easy to give all the romantic answers and to say I just read all these books and I listened to podcasts and [inaudible 00:04:48], because [inaudible 00:04:51]. I struggled, and I think especially in the fitness industry it’s the same, where we have such high expectations for ourselves and others. I worked within that 12 months, but the best thing I had were two children who needed me to be the breadwinner, and I was forced to get out of bed. I didn’t want to get out of bed. I was so, had no energy, I had an autoimmune disorder. To get through that, you don’t have a choice, you know? I actually get over people who just all complain so much, because I had a really rough upbringing. I had so much stuff that happened to me in the time that I, and I’m talking major stuff, like lots of abuse and everything from the time I was four. Then I had skin disorders and I had … Oh my God. I never would share it onstage until I got to America and someone asked me why I had such a passion for helping people do pain well, and then I shared my story and they went oh, now I get it. You’re so good at it.
I just realised that I had to do it, I had to do the work, regardless of how I felt or the story I told myself. I just did the work that I preached. I made myself be a flip chick, and I forced myself to run up the stairs when I wanted to crawl. I forced myself to get out of bed when my eyes were bleeding. I forced myself to get on another plane when I didn’t want to. I forced myself to smile when I wanted to cry. Shame and loneliness and absolute no direction I think hits us all at certain times, so if anyone’s listening and you’re going wow, I was 50 walking through New York airport thinking my life is over. I missed the best bit, you know? The sadness I felt in that 12 months nearly destroyed me.
Chantal Brodrick: Wow. Terry, thank you so much for sharing that. I think it’s important, and I appreciate you talking about it, because I do think that every single one of us goes through those challenges, has a difficult time, and I think the fact that you have been so honest with what you went through and to see where you are now and to see what you’ve become and what you’ve made of your career, even though you had an amazing career before that as well, I think it just goes to show that we do face difficult times, and you do need to have that strength to push through and perhaps that focus on what it is that you’re working towards and who it is that you’re trying to help along the way. Thank you so much for your honesty in sharing that. I guess, if there was any advice that you could give to people, and I’ll move away from that major challenge thing into a transformation, because a lot of people in the fitness industry come to the industry as their second or their third career move. It’s not uncommon that someone will have a career in a different industry and then decide that they want to move into fitness. For anyone that’s in that particular position, is there any advice that you could give them in regards to getting started in their second career?
Terry Hawkins: Yeah, gosh yeah. I’m in that space right now, because I’m taking, I mean, I started doing online digital training in 2005, but I didn’t take it to market, and I think this is a really, really interesting thing is that we come up with these great ideas for our business. We work out what our logo is before we’ve even worked out how we’re going to bring five dollars through the door.
Chantal Brodrick: That is so true. You get caught up in the excitement.
Terry Hawkins: Yes, and all the branding and all this sort of stuff, and I go, get a customer first, you know? That’s when you’ve got a business. I knew I had to digitise my business, and I had been searching for someone to do it with me, because I knew that I was the highest intelligence in my business, and that’s not a compliment. I was always looking for someone who had more business intelligence, and I’m not a business head, you know? I’m a creative, and so luckily I met a 27-year-old going on 28, you can say it when you’re in your twenties. I always say that he’s the next Steve Jobs, and I would love to be a witness to his journey, but he came along, just helping me with the Terry Hawkins brand, first of all, my speaking side, and then started to look at the people and progress side. We had this incredible sales management leadership training company, saw that the difference between us and everybody else was that we actually did a human shift, so we would do the personal growth element as well, and then of course, that’s when you would get the massive results that we would get, and saw us as digitising it.
Here I meet this millennial, now, I’m twice his age, and we together are re-creating this whole business. The longer you’ve been in business, the longer you’ve done something, even if you’ve started a brand new business, you hang onto what you know. It’s that arrogance, and it’s not an arrogance from being a jerk, it’s an arrogance from, well I know this is right because it’s worked for me for all these years. We literally had to pull, the first thing I would say is pull what you’ve done so well apart. Pull all the bricks one by one out of the house, do a complete reno. This is more of a mindset reno, and then decide which bricks go back, so which bricks do I take with me into my next career? What’s served me in the last one that will serve me in this one? If you are in a new career, then you better work your butt off to learn about it, to go to every program that you can to become the expert in your particular area.
When I say expert, I’m a bit funny about experts, but I really believe that if you’re starting behind the 8-ball, become a wizard. Put the effort in, and I’m not a wizard in online or digital learning, and neither is Ray, but he actually knows enough, has the smarts and the digital side in the marketing side, he brings it all together, and I actually stepped aside, and this is wisdom for you, you only sometimes get that as you get older, is I stepped aside from being the CEO and gave him that role.
Chantal Brodrick: And made yourself creative chief.
Terry Hawkins: He actually said to me, that’s what you do best. Of course I’m part of the influence of growing the business and so forth. It’s a brand new business, and I have cried, I have thrown tantrums. I’ve tried to hold onto what I know, and if this is a new business for you, you have to put down what you knew to be true. You’ve gotta put it down. You can’t keep saying, I know best. We just have to, we can take with us a lot of stuff, of course we can. I think if it’s a new career, surround yourself by people who are current. You’ve got to be relevant.
Chantal Brodrick: I really like your analogy of the house and the bricks and everything, because it’s so true that there are still going to be things that we’ve learnt along the way that we can utilise in that transition, but we can’t be so set in our ways that we’re not willing to evolve and willing to learn from others, and I think the other thing that’s really important is your example of Ray within the business is actually going out and recognising that if you’re not strong in a particular area of business, then work with someone that is or bring people into the business or work with a mentor or coach or other people that can help support you in those areas that maybe you’re not as well experienced in.
Terry Hawkins: As a business owner, that’s a very tough thing to do. I think the longer you’ve been doing something, you become your own glass ceiling, for a start, but you also put the blinders on. You don’t hear it, and you actually sabotage, which I tried to do quite a few times. I’m lucky enough that he is very unemotional. I mean, he’s emotional, we’re all emotional, but he speaks facts, stats, numbers. It’s not about how you feel about something, it’s about what is going to get us a result, and what’s the longevity of this business? How long is it going to last?
Chantal Brodrick: That’s a really interesting point, because we talk about different behavioural styles and profiling and it sounds to me like you’re saying he is obviously that numbers, I want to say, S and C on the disc profile, and it sounds like you’re more the I, creative, maybe D, leader role? Am I right in that?
Terry Hawkins: Yeah, basically. The interesting thing about Ray, and not to make this the Ray show, but he actually has all four. Yes, his dominants are, we have a different profiler that we use. He’s the C and the D. The interesting thing though is that he has trained himself to not become emotionally attached. Things, they just are. I’ll deliver work and I will put my heart and soul into it, and I’m emotionally attached to it. To him, it’s a thing. It’s the thing that’s going to get us the results. It’ll be like you’re in a marketing meeting, and someone has done all this work on their marketing proposal, and they bring it in. The rest of the team go, that sucks. It’s not going to work because of A, B, and C, and we get all wounded and we forget the ultimate result. What’s the ultimate result? Get a customer through the door and then keep them. Just because something that we do isn’t accepted by everybody else doesn’t mean to say that we’re bad or that we’ve done a poor job.
Chantal Brodrick: Yeah, I wanted to dive into that, because I think it’s a good opportunity for everyone to reflect on what their own business makeup is and what their team makeup is, and about how those different behavioural styles and personality types contribute to the overall business because quite often when you find that you’re missing one of those elements, that’s when it might be stopping you from moving forward. If you don’t have the person that isn’t emotionally engaged and can help with just sitting down and doing the stats, I’m the same as you, Terry. I’m very creative and emotional and put your heart into the business, but you need that person that can be quite analytic and can be able to just deal in the stats and the data and the research. It’s an important part of any particular business, even if you’re a sole trader. That’s what I always say to people, if you’re a sole trader then you still need to work with people that can help you with that, whether it’s hiring an accountant or working with someone that can do your research, it’s still an important element of moving forward and progressing in your business.
Terry Hawkins: I totally agree, and I think one of the downside, because I’ve studied the temperament theories from Hippocrates, was the originator, for like 26, 27 years. It’s been a huge part of my career as an educator. The one thing I’ve seen however, is that people have now, we’re really losing our resilience, and so rather than say what is the strength of this style, let’s say, the temperament. Of course the Ds, they’re very quick decision makers. The downside is they can be a bit rough around the edges and be a bit harsh in their comments, be a bit too quick, which is great if you don’t want to, I’ve got someone saying to me once, Terry, you’ve got great advice, it’s just the razor blades in the comments that kill people before they’ve heard you.
Every style brings something to the table, and I think what we do is we spend so much time accommodating the other styles rather than going, this is a meeting for us to grow our business and to make our business amazing. Let’s leave the, not insecurities, what’s the word I’m looking for? The sensitivities outside the door for now. I’m not saying not be respectful to people, but I think there comes a time when sometimes you’ve just got to put down the insecurities and the sensitivities and just go, the business is our number one baby. The business is what we have to look after here. I get so over having to dance around people to the point where it affects the business, and I think, what am I doing? Am I running a business or am I running a don’t hurt my feelings session? You know, so I think there’s a time and place for it. I do think we’ve taken it a little too far, the personal styles. You’ve just gotta be so careful about why you get up in the morning.
Chantal Brodrick: Good advice.
Terry Hawkins: Probably [crosstalk 00:17:26]
Chantal Brodrick: No, hey, we’re here to talk, and I appreciate your honesty. It’s great to dive into this stuff in so much detail. I was doing a bit of stalking on your website recently, and you on the website talk about the intersection of technology and transformation, and I just got so captured in the website and the visuals that you had on there, and it was funny because as I was reading that and I was looking at, it just kept resonating with me the similarities that the fitness industry are going through as far as this huge influx of technology that we are seeing. It feels like every week we’ve got a new app or a new gadget or something that’s either checking our performance, keeping our data, virtual fitness that is growing rapidly. It’s just progressing so, so quickly. With your experience in that area, Terry, I was hoping maybe you’d give us a bit of an insight, and it doesn’t have to be fitness specific. Let’s just talk in general of how you think technology is going to affect the consumer experience, let’s say over the next five years?
Terry Hawkins: That word transformation, it’s a tricky word, that one. People, it’s either a hot button for some people or not. From a technology point of view, I think that it’s where everyone’s meeting, and the closer you can get to creating a human experience in that technology I think is the way forward. Now, we have a [inaudible 00:19:05] to both, and that’s where the transformation comes from, but we also want that transformation to be done through the online component. I think the fitness, I think it’s a very similar industry. I think you’ve gotta be relevant, I think you’ve gotta work out who your tribe, who your following is, and then serve them. I think that’s one thing we’ve always been conscious of is serving our customer’s needs. I think what happens a lot is we copy, so we panic, and comparison will kill you every single time. We have our business over here, and then all of a sudden we get on Facebook and we go oh my God, look what she’s doing or look what he’s doing or what’s this, and I haven’t got that.
Then you combine comparison with scarcity, you get panic, and rather than having a very strategic plan where you know exactly what your core offer is, staying pure to that, be nimble enough to change when needed, I know it sounds like a contradiction, but you have your core component, and then I think that from a customer point of view, customers want to have that. I shop online, we have a retail training company. This is the irony of it. I do most of my shopping online because the customer experience for me is horrendous. I think, why would I bother, unless it’s one of our clients, why would I bother going shopping when I’ve put all that effort, energy in. Why would I bother having a personal fitness trainer come to my home when you’re late, you haven’t brushed your teeth, when you talk too much and haven’t worked out my personality style, and so now you’re annoying me, you’ve been friendly, when I can just plug in an app and there’s my fitness trainer? I think it’s a blame to both, and I think when you’ve become really relevant to your consumer or your customer, whoever that is, and hit it at all angles, I think then you’re serving up everything on a platter for them.
Chantal Brodrick: Thinking about what you just said, would you say that in order for fitness professionals and studio owners and studios to remain relevant to the customer, we need to go back to basics and ensure that we are providing A class customer service so that people don’t feel like they need to or don’t feel like those at-home, read off an app, is the way to go if we want to continue to provide a one on one service or a group fitness class or something like that, does it come back to basics? Is it back to understanding customer service?
Terry Hawkins: I think it’s what your model is. I think what we try to do is be a little bit of everything to everybody. You have to become a purist, you don’t have to, but we have to become a purist in our business, just refine our model, because we were trying to be everything to everybody. Then what was happening was my content that was creating amazing results for businesses, they were basically coming and doing a session at some of them and then going off and doing it themselves, and it was like how can we protect our IP, not just from our point of view, but also from our really core, loyal clients? How can we look after them, and that’s when we went, why don’t we just look after them? Why don’t we just stop the general public from coming to our programs and select the clients that we want to work with and serve the hell out of it. That’s what we’ve done, and it’s actually working unbelievably successfully.
If I was in this industry, I’d go all right, what’s my core business? It might be one-on-one, personally I believe that human beings affect human beings, that an app, there’s nothing like being in a room with a human’s energy and the community that that has and having other people in the room. There’s so many pluses or live experiences, but then you could actually then be complemented by having something where they take you home. The days that they don’t make it to the gym or whatever it is, then I might have two days with you, and then you might have a meal plan that you help me with and you might have a little get me out of bed kickstarter in the morning. Whatever it is, that it all comes back to that core component, what’s my goal? My goal is to help everybody that stands in front of me to be the best version of themselves they can be.
Chantal Brodrick: Can I ask you a question? This is about your own business, Terry, because you just said that you changed the model from them coming and doing a training session and then going away and doing their own thing, which is something that we face in the fitness industry all the time, especially personal trainers, because our clients quite often will come in, do a couple of sessions, feel comfortable, and then kind of go yup, cool, I know what I’m doing now, I’ll go ahead and do it myself. Can you just give us a little bit more insight into what your customer experience is now and how it is that you package up and serve that whole experience for a customer now to keep them engaged and to keep them involved in your business, because I think we could probably draw some relevance from our own business from what you’ve done.
Terry Hawkins: Yeah, that’s very, very good. By the way, you are an amazing listener. Not many interviewers know how to interview properly, you’re amazing.
Chantal Brodrick: Why thank you Terry.
Terry Hawkins: The first thing that we did was we decided what we wanted to do. The first one is just to make it a decision about what your business is, full stop, period. Secondly, so that was we decided we’re going to be mainly online and then we were going to have a live component, but we were no longer going to train the masses in a live space. That was just going to be left for the managers, so we did that, and then we made it a 12-month contract. That was our first step. Then we went, does that really serve them? Because we [inaudible 00:24:59] all the time with the live training. Then we thought, well no, it’s not going to serve them, because [inaudible 00:25:05] if they do two or three years. Then they’re going to get the momentum, they’re going to get the depth, and then we would’ve also had the chance to layer in another program that will actually help that come through, and then another program. We are running like that crazy to keep in front of the demand.
Now, the interesting thing was that we actually stopped the business. I sold my home and took all the equity out of my home. This is after losing everything seven years ago, build up enough equity again, board a home, and then in February this year, I went you know what, I’m backing myself. I sold the home, we poured it all back into the business, and we turned the trap off. I stopped all live trainings, and we just hunkered down and wrote, it took us hours and hours. We did something like 400 videos in the first program, and not all of them made the cutting floor. I’m sorry, a lot of them made the cutting floor. Yeah, we had videos, we had animations, we’ve got 3D animations.
We’ve poured our energy and finances back into this business because we’re clear. We’re so clear, and that’s the best part. We make them pay, not make them, but we say, we’d like to have a commitment with you for a one to three-year contract, and in that we will serve you as much as we can. That’s what I would do, and give them something extra. Give them something else, give them a reason, why they want to come back to you. What is it about you, or are you just like everybody else out there? That’s okay if you are, but you can’t, if you’re a common person, you’re common like everybody else. You’re the same personal fitness trainer, you do the same apps, you do the same little card with the rubber band wrapped around someone’s front door. Whatever it is, if you do this the same, don’t expect exceptional results. You’re now in the swimming pool with hundreds of thousands of other people. Why would they be loyal?
Chantal Brodrick: I really appreciate that vision of that one to three year, because I think that what we need to do is have the confidence to back ourselves that we value the service that we’re providing enough that someone’s willing to make that type of commitment, and as trainers and as fitness professionals at the end of the day, we are all helping people live longer, happier, healthier lives, so we should have that confidence in our business, but as you say, creating the entire experience, the entire package, and not just selling session to session or week to week or membership or PT sessions, that actually creating a journey for our customer is what it sounds like to me, and making sure that we are slightly different from, or we have a point of difference from everyone else in the market. I appreciate you going into that, I know we’ve kind of got off track a little bit, but I just think there are so many parallels with what you’ve done, and I think a lot of our listeners will find it really interesting, so thank you. Now …
Terry Hawkins: Just one extra thought with the fitness industry, because one of the things that I love about where we are right now, so Ray has his amazing expertise in finances, and I’ve handed all that over. Everybody has to answer that every cent is being [inaudible 00:28:18]. We’re treating ourselves as a start-up, which I love, I absolutely love that mindset. We’ve got our amazing IT guru who is the back end and who develops the work. I think at the fitness industry, same with my industry, is that we’re lone rangers, unless you’ve got big centres and so forth. Even if you’ve got Everytime Fitness or 24-Hour Fitness or Fitness First, I’m trying to include them all.
Chantal Brodrick: You do it well.
Terry Hawkins: If you’ve got a multitude, each person within each of their centres is still an individual. I think hang out with people who don’t have your skill set. If I was in the industry, I’d do a job lot where you had someone who was in the meal plan side of it, someone who was in the personal growth side of it, I don’t know. It’s just an idea.
Chantal Brodrick: No, I think it’s totally relevant. Okay, two more quick questions for you. You’ve been absolutely amazing. First of all, we are smack bang at the beginning of our women in fitness month. It’s a month where we celebrate all the amazing women that have achieved leadership roles, that have done amazing things within our industry and the outside of our industry, which is why we’ve got you on the show, Terry. I was wondering if you could give any advice to our female listeners about your tips on really committing to and pursuing their career goals.
Terry Hawkins: Okay, the first thing I would do is give up the guilt, so especially if they’re a mother. I have been a single mother for 10 or 11 years now, and I made that choice to have both. I think as far as following their career goals, I just think, people that say you can’t have it all, yes you can. You can have it all, you just can’t have it all at the same time. If I was home with my kids, I would be home with my kids. Even having said them, if I had work to get done, I would work until early hours in the morning. Have they sacrificed, yes, we all have. I think don’t be so hard on yourself. The biggest thing I would say, and I don’t know if it happens in your industry, but in my industry there’s a little bit of that typical female, let’s pull you down, let’s … I just think it’s such a waste, you know?
I always go, if you’re going to gossip about someone in your business or in your industry, how about take them out to dinner, sit them down, and actually see if your gossip’s right. If it’s right, then continue to gossip, but if it’s not, then shut your mouth. I think we’re all trying to do the best that we can, and I think that we can be our own worst enemies, but I think there’s so much support another woman can give another woman. I just think, just go for it. Surround yourself by loving people, and don’t give yourself up. If you have to get into bed at night and rock yourself to sleep crying, it’s okay. It’s okay. I’ve done it so many times.
Chantal Brodrick: It happens. Thank you, Terry. Okay, our last question for today. We call this our fitbizperation, and I was hoping you might be able to give us, and I think we’ve had such a rounded conversation today that it feels pretty fitting to finish off on this one. What are your tips on staying positive, powering towards your goals, in business and in life, because you’re an amazing example of someone who’s done that?
We’ll be back in Terry in just a moment, but first, here’s a quick message from one of our podcast partners.
Terry Hawkins: I think at this stage in my life, and if I could’ve learnt this sooner, it would’ve just given me so much more relief, is try not to be attached to anything. You know, something happens, and we get so upset by it. We don’t get a deal that we wanted or someone steals one of our clients or whatever it might be, and we get so shattered. What we don’t realise is we rise high enough above it and look down on it, it actually is the best thing that ever happened to you in the future. I always, I had a really, something really disappointing happened in my business about five years ago. As I shut the door and started crying with this guttural sadness of God, what now? You know, that feeling. This voice came into my head and it just said, life is perfect. You just can’t see it yet.
Chantal Brodrick: Wow.
Terry Hawkins: I just took a breath out and I went, okay, I’ll trust you.
Chantal Brodrick: God, I hope I have that voice in my head the next time that happens as well. It’s a good one to remember.
Terry Hawkins: It is perfect. You’re beautiful.
Chantal Brodrick: Thank you so much, Terry. You’ve just been phenomenal, and it was so nice to have a very different perspective on business. I honestly, I said it before, but I appreciate your honesty today. You’ve given us some business and personal insights, and it’s just been an absolute pleasure having you on this show, so thank you for joining us, Terry.
Terry Hawkins: Oh Chantal, thank you, it’s been wonderful. You’ve been so easy to talk to.
Chantal Brodrick: One last thing, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, if they want to find out more information, where should they go to?
Terry Hawkins: You can go to our wonderful new website, peopleandprogressglobal.com, and my Facebook page, just Terry Hawkins.
Chantal Brodrick: Perfect, perfect, and I have to warn everyone, give yourself some time, because I went onto your website and I just got, I got caught up in there. I was like, oh, I want to look at this and then move to that, because it’s so many great visuals on there, so it’s a very cool website.
Terry Hawkins: I wish I could give people a little key to get into our academy so you can experience our life.
Chantal Brodrick: Yeah, you need a little preview. Hey Terry, thank you so much, it’s been such a pleasure having you on, and I hope we can stay in touch.
Terry Hawkins: I’d love to Chantal, thank you so much.
Chantal Brodrick: Thank you.
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